President Joe Biden walks away after he delivers remarks on the situation in Afghanistan in the East Room of the White House, on August 16, 2021, in Washington, DC. (Photo by Bill O'Leary/via Getty Images)
The news coming out of Afghanistan is the worst kind of news — the kind that sends you reeling in shock, only to be lifted up again by the reprimanding reality of expected consequences that delivers another hard slap. I can’t imagine that I am the only one who feels stunned and foolish and overwhelmed by all of the many reasons how the United States got to this point.
President Biden defended his administration’s decision to withdraw from Afghanistan after two decades of war yesterday, and It would be easy to just break down his statement into conveniently digestible quips, much like cable news is attempting to feed us. But, the assessment portion of what really happened is going to be even more uncomfortable than the last 20 years fighting a losing war — at least it should be.
Here are some basic facts: the exit of US and NATO forces from the country prompted the Taliban to take over the country in a matter of weeks, with the capital Kabul being the most recent city to fall. This swift siege was no doubt aided by former President Trump’s decision to release the co-founder of the Taliban from prison, the man who has implemented himself as the president of Afghanistan. Trump also freed 5,000 members of the Taliban from prison, the very army who successfully took over Kabul last week. While Afghanistan was destined to fall and the current president bears the responsibility for that failure regardless of culpability, the speed was dangerously hastened by Donald Trump.
Speaking from the White House on Monday, Biden said the Afghan government’s swift defeat only reinforced the argument that ending US military involvement in the country was the right decision. Biden went on to make a great point that was made twenty years ago: “American troops cannot, and should not, be fighting in a war and dying in a war that Afghan forces are not willing to fight for themselves.”
Biden continued by saying that if Afghanistan is unable to mount a defense against the Taliban now, “there is no chance” that extending US military presence in the country would have made any difference. This is all very reasonable and makes sense, but the swift take-over and America’s complete loss of control concerning the evacuation leaves me with many questions.
I thought we could watch Biden’s address again, and then discuss our concerns and issues in this forum, free from the input of trolls and from the backlash of those who strongly disagree. Let’s create an open forum for all of our many thoughts on what has happened in Afghanistan, that is the culmination of decades of error, made by many US leaders.
What do you think? Let’s try and make sense of it together, or at least debate respectfully with each other to get some answers or some kind of sense about what we are thinking and feeling. I would love to know what you think, please comment below and I will add my thoughts in the comments throughout the day as well.
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The Afghanistan war has changed over time in terms of why were there, why we were still there, and justifications from both the left and right depending on who held the power at the time. It was clear that 20 years in little if anything was gained in terms of Afghanistan being able to stand on their own. I find both the left and right a little hypocritical right now - when TFG announced plans to withdraw it was cheered by the right and devoured by the left. Now that roles are reversed the same arguments are reversed. One thing I'm comfortable in now is that the decision now was based on thoughtful reflection, data, facts, and forward thinking...not based on what one thought would be popular with a particular party. That is a HUGE difference. There were a lot of mistakes by everyone over the last 20 years, but a decision was made, not for popularity, but for what was felt was the right thing to do given where we are at right now.
I'm probably going to be in the minority in this position, but yes, I think that President Biden messed this one up. Granted, that gives him something in common with his three predecessors (especially his Orange predecessor, though all of the Presidents since 2000 own a share of this), but as he said, the buck stops with him. He was the one in charge when the Saigon-like images flashed across our screens over the weekend, and it was him who said just a short time ago that it would be "months" before the Taliban retook Kabul.
All of that being said, what's happened cannot be undone. So, what do we do now? To me, the proper thing to do would be to surround the Kabul airport with as many troops as is necessary and make sure that each and every Afghani national who worked with/for us has safe passage to the United (and as an aside, F that racist bigot Tucker Carlson and his xenophobic rantings about us being "invaded". I despite that opportunistic cretin so much). EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. OF. THEM. And, we should should open our doors to the women of that country who want to come here as well. We spent 20 years telling them that they would have a better life, so I think that we owe them at least that much. We need to make it crystal clear to the Taliban that while we are leaving, we will not do until everyone who wants to leave with us has had the opportunity to do so. If they interfere in any way with this process, well, we still have plenty of bombers and munitions, don't we?
Bottom line for me: My heart goes out to the Afghan people, who are now returning to the Seventh Century, and to the thousands of dead/injured service members from this country and its allies, all of whom must be wondering why we went there in the first place.
Perhaps it’s because I was a senior in high school when Saigon fell in 1975 but I’m not shocked by what’s unfolding. I realize it’s difficult to watch but it’s NOT dissimilar. I don’t lay the blame at Biden’s feet AT ALL. Everyone is acting like the 3,000 troops that were there were holding the Taliban in abeyance throughout the whole of Afghanistan, that’s absurd. In order for this to have come off cleanly like an episode of our favorite weekly TV show is equally ABSURD. There is no “Playbook for Exiting a Failed State”! In order for Biden to have pulled this off cleanly the Afghan Government and it’s 300,000 troops would have had to put up at least the pretense of a fight; clearly, that didn’t occur. Is it ugly, are people hurt, will people die ABSOLUTELY. War is an ugly business.
Thanks for your thoughtful take on what is going on Amee. After 20 years of getting to know their culture, religion, history, why didn’t we understand we were never going to import democracy the way we live it? As Fareed Zakaria said, there is no good way to lose a war. It’s heartbreaking to watch (again) the people who helped us, left behind. All I can think is - we did not have good intel that we thought we had a lot more time to get out. Also, I am mad at MSM. All these screaming headlines about what a fail this is for Biden and nothing about what Trump did to set this up for failure or how bad it actually has been for years. We the public really has no idea what is going on there. We are just fed exclamation point tidbits, with all outlets running the same cell phone video and trotting out the same talking heads discussing Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, etc. It’s awful on so many levels.
Watching Biden's speech yesterday, you know, brought me to tears... I saw someone who made an impossible decision that I know he knows could have consequences politically, but still stood by that decision.
Because, to be honest, the thing I kept saying the last days to myself... American's have learned nothing. I admired his resolve. Maybe some wanted him to say other things, fine. He didn't.
I've watched this all unfold over 20 years. The events that transpired after 9/11 is what first got me interested in politics, and in many ways got me through some tough times. I had no TV at the time, and all my information I gleaned from online sources from all over. I was informed to the nth degree. See, twenty years ago, my marriage died, and then my mom at age 54 of cancer, and all this unfolding gripped me. Distracted me.
Well, yesterday I turned 54, and watching possibly 20 years in Afghanistan just completely collapse, and so spectacularly, is just so very sad.
What bothers me, is how was the U.S. AND NATO allies, like the UK, also caught off guard? We have soldiers & others with experience in the country with stories of the corruption in the military, in the government, who saw this coming. So THAT is what I think needs addressing. What disconnect made all those who are entrusted to make these decisions so wrong? And, like, for 20 blawdy years? Over and over?
Uk Foreign minister says in an article I read in the Evening Standard, "I haven’t spoken to an international interlocutor, including countries in the region, over the last week, who hasn’t been surprised”.
WTF happened to make this all dissolve so theatrically?
It's a mess no matter what. Sure my heart goes out to the women and children of Afghanistan who will heavily bear the brunt of the Taliban regime for years to come, but Biden was right, we can't keep spending American treasure and lives for another country's civil war. My heart also goes out to the American homeless who have expanded their ranks because of Trump's policies, the collapse of the American middle class, the lack of quality education for American children, American vets who are primarily used as props for both parties, the racial inequality, on and on. We have a plethora of our own problems and a democracy on the verge of collapse itself. Most Americans support pulling out of Afghanistan, most people don't care but of course, FAUX news will frame this as Biden's defeat and conveniently forget out how Trump cozied up with terrorists and helped them rebuild their army. Politics in America. At least Joe Biden followed his conviction regardless of the politics of the moment, that's more than we can say for any Trumplican.
I so admire Biden’s courage! The military planning for the inevitable chaotic retreat from Afghanistan is criminal and some Generals should be losing some stars! They did not serve us or our president well at all.
History lesson I am sadly having to relearn again. Military might does not win asymmetrical warfare. Geo Washington defeated the greatest imperial army in history with a ragtag bunch of farmers…seldom even winning a battle! Gandhi did it to them again in India! Ho Chi Minh copied them and defeated us in Vietnam, the Iraqis used their own version and now the Taliban have worn us down….. you know what they call it when you keep repeating the same behavior while hoping for different results?
I have two words: Remember Viet Nam. This was Russia's Viet Nam. There is no reason to maim, mutilate, and kill anymore Americans and Allies in this unwinnable war.
The Afghan war was a mistake from the first. If Bush II had been honest about 9/11, we would have gone after Saudi Arabia. But because of Big Oil, we picked on Afghanistan, and then Iraq.
So much of this shit show was our fault: we armed the Taliban so that they could fight the Soviet Union in 1979. When the Soviets pulled out, we were faced with a heavily armed, vengeful Taliban angry with the West and all non-Muslims.
45 made the situation worse, by releasing Taliban leaders and fighters to return to their unending civil war. But as in all foreign policy decisions, The Former Guy was just being Putin's puppet.
President Biden was correct: if the trained, armed Afghani army won't do its job, then there is no sane reason that we should let our children fight and die there any longer. Twenty years is 19 years too long when we shouldn't have been there in the first place. More time would not have changed the outcome, just piled up more American bodies.
As for the women and girls and any other religious groups that will be oppressed under the Taliban, it is a terrible, sorry situation. I feel for them, and send them prayers of strength and perseverance to fight the regime from within.
It is not America's job to be the world's police force, especially when the majority of the presumed victims don't want our help. We will take in Afghan refugees, and use diplomatic power to mitigate the regime change. But that's all we can or should do.
Afghanistan has defeated every invading empire that has tried to rule it, From the British Empire to the Soviet Union. What made the US think that we could do better than all the others was pure hubris.
At this point, my big issue was we should have gotten the helpers out first. We can defend our troops getting out. Leaving the translators, and acting like they were an afterthought is unconsionable.
In 2001 with 9/11, we had a knee jerk reaction to the World Trade Center attacks. Until then, we had an unconscious belief that we were safe; separated by huge oceans from the terrorism we read and saw abroad. We were stunned. And having the “greatest military on earth”, felt we had the right to go anywhere, do anything for payback.
Yes we told ourselves were were taking actions to protect ourselves and the rest of the world from future attacks. Honestly though as a society; we had bloodlust. Gut check: How did you feel 11 years later when Oshawa Bin Laden was finally tracked down and killed. For many of us, IT FELT GOOD! Please, I am not applauding this feeling. I am disgusted by it; when I feel it in myself, when I sense it in others.
After 9/11, broadly speaking, we were willing to accept any statement of culpability as fact. While the Afghan government were “harboring” al-Qadda and other terrorist groups; they were running a less than failed state. Similar to Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, the Iraqi government was maintaining order; even with the existence of extreme violence and genocide.
But with 911, ur jingoism kicked in again. We still had not learned to take a step back; and take perspective.
Ready, fire, aim!” was the rule of the day. When the French wisely avoided getting caught up in the 2001 Afghanistan and 2003 Iraq wave; we made jokes about them. Renaming our favorite side “Freedom Fries”; “French rifles for sale. Never used. Dropped once.” How wise they look today.
This idea that we can ‘seed Democracy” around the world stopped working shortly after World War II. Yes, thank God for the Marshall Plan. Western Europe was extremely vulnerable to Soviet influence and possibly even takeover. But the last real “seeding of Democracy” may have occurred in Greece in 1946, when the Soviets attempted to infiltrate and conquer. Fortunately the citizens of Greece, by and large, thought of communism as the anti-Christ and resisted accordingly.
Yet we continued to run with the old game plan, thinking we can seed Democracy. Even former President Nixon, after his resignation and during his attempt at reputation rehabilitation, wrote the book, NO MORE VIETNAMS. Hats off to Bush, “the elder”, who wisely stopped our military advance in 1991. We had accomplished the goals we committed to with our Allied partners: primarily kicking Hussein out of Kuwait. How we howled for more! As a society, our jingoism engine was running hot.
And while our ego is again smarting from another embarrassing withdrawal (segue to image of helicopter above the US Saigon Embassy); the greatest losses are the pain, suffering and death in the populations of the countries we allegedly went to help. Never mind the damage we have done to our own people. It is estimated that over 100,00 Afghan citizens and 500,000 to 1,000,000 Iraqi lives have been lost.
And not nearly the scale of the figures above, we know we also lost military (and civilian) lives. We know that many more came back physically and emotionally scarred. A lot of the homeless population is comprised of scarred veterans; who haven’t been helped enough to heal, or at least resume a semblance of a healthy life.
But we don’t seem to comprehend the lost opportunities of throwing our “best and brightest” against the rocks of war. The loss of love, happiness and healthiness in our nation is unmeasurable. Never mind the economic benefits of a larger workforce and larger pool of consumers would have brought.
In his farewell address, President Eisenhower warned us of the Military Industrial Complex. I sure that failure to heed his warning is a theme that runs through all of this . . .
I watched when Saigon fell and wondered why our military couldn't have done a better job of evacuating those allied with us. I am still wondering - but this time it's why no one seems to have learned anything in the intervening years about evacuating allies from a failed occupation.
That's what this was, after all is said and done. Once we got Bin Laden & most of Al Queda out of there, we should have considered getting out then. In an orderly, controlled fashion, not the helter skelter, idiotic mess precipitated TFG. Why our military couldn't have managed the withdrawal in a more controlled fashion remains to be discovered. Was it constraints from TFG, or was it chaos because of the manner in which Biden chose to proceed? I look forward with no pleasure whatsoever to finding out which is closer to what actually happened. And I have no doubt that it will be parsed, analyzed and dissected six ways from Sunday in the weeks and months to come.
My only consolation in this, knowing that people whose only "crime" was to offer assistance to our troops will most likely suffer and die, is that the GOP (without whose machinations we might not even have been in this mess-by Gore winning instead of Georgie) will do something else completely egregious and democracy-shattering before the 2022 midterms which will refocus attention on them and not on this. <- whew, long sentence, eh? With that in mind, I am gearing up for another 'fight for the heart and soul of our country' at the ballot box in the coming year.
This isn't the first time, and it won't be the last...
That being said why do the American people put up with outright lies from it's political leaders under the guise of democracy...
Even if it was only a dream, DOD, should of been tasked for a plan as soon as Secretary Austin was sworn in, yes he had a lot on his plate when he took office, with sexual harassment and other things, but that comes with the job.
Biden's micro management and detailed briefs go way overboard that's what the secretarial and their staffs are for to do the ground work for implementation of tasks..
Could of left 15,000 or 20,000 to protect logistical personel, and flying assets, and orderly move Afgan civilians and families to neutral countries or directly to former military bases in the states. Give them one chance if they refuse the stay or go the back of line. That's the least we could of done, there would still be some chaos but not like what happened. Logistical speaking every other or third planes could of been for evacuatees TRANSCOM could've figured it out..
We lie to the American people, the American troops and the host countries citizens, which is deplorable and takes us as a nation down a nock on foreign policy everytime we do it. Our word as a nation is even worth less then some promises left by Trump's lies...
For all the blood spilled, and lives lost in vain, are counter point to Abe Lincoln's that none of the troops should ever have died in vain, but they have and they did... I guess they will continue to in future wars unless the American people stop the lies of the politicians... That's why we need a more open government that follows the intent of the Constitution, if we learn to respect our own people maybe we could also learn to respect the other peoples of the world...
This wasn't my war or neither was Vietnam, but I seen the broken bodies, and the broken families, plus countless suicides... The American troops deserve better, the American people deserve better, isn't that one of the key words of this adminstration "better"....
(Bio; 80, plus years, 20 years USAF active military, 14 years as an Air Force Civilian)
I am angry at CNN and MSNBC and the rest for their tearing apart of this decision. I guess what I heard and what "they" heard from the President were two different things. My heart is in my throat over the Afghan people but everyone (mostly) is missing the point of what took place by TFG to set this up. A little context of the big picture is missing from all the yelling. Tckr Crlsn is nothing but a fear mongering blow hard...
One additional thought and comparison I understand how those who served there feel betrayed. The men and women who served in Vietnam felt betrayed as well. The difference is that they were demonized by the American public. The were greeted home with the phrase “Baby Killer”! It still rings in my in my ears.
You know there were back room dealings. We will probably never know the complete story. It was very Saigon-esque, to me, only on a much more dangerous level. I wonder, what is next with the Taliban? They are now emboldened.
I have this feeling it's not over yet. I certainly agree with what the President did. It had to be done. "We did not go to Afghanistan to nation-build." Time will tell as to what may happen in Afghanistan in the future, and I think the US will be watching closely.
Aug 17, 2021 • 15 tweets • MMazarr/status/1427459275631349764
One argument of critics is that, as Bret Stephens claims, the US had a cozy minimal presence which "Any American president could have maintained ... almost indefinitely — with no prospect of defeating the Taliban but none of being routed by them, either"
Opinion | Disaster in Afghanistan Will Follow Us Home
Biden owns the moment. He’ll also own the consequences.
"In other words," Stephens adds, "we had achieved a good-enough solution for a nation we could afford to neither save nor lose. We squandered it anyway." This is far too simplistic, a dangerous and misleading straw man. Many problems with this vision of a Permanent Minimal War:
1. There is no end to the effort in this scheme. None. If we agree that governance + other key indicators were stuck or in reverse, this clever stratagem ties the US to a truly forever war. What major democracy has ever maintained such a role (in *active* combat) for 3+ decades?
2. Even w/small force levels there are economic costs. Proposed 2021 spending was $14B assuming big drawdown; if violence fluctuated, we could easily have seen spikes. So, with potent domestic needs, we spend $20B+ a year on an endless war?
3. The "stay forever" plan assumes the Taliban would have tolerated such a stalemate forever. They would not. The last few days suggest they had major untapped political + military power. If they sensed the US was digging in to stay, they would escalate, not abandon their cause
4. Indeed, the best guess is probably that there was never a stalemate to preserve. Mapping Taliban control is tough, but lots of indicators showed gradual rise in power. Last days indicate that they were accumulating more influence than we thought
And so, the US would not have had a calm perpetual position but rather more likely confront a series of "2009 moments": Trends look bad, we can surge or watch it fall apart. That's not a sustainable long-term strategic position to be in. Biden did future presidents a huge favor
5. Staying forever makes the US complicit in maintaining a permanent state of war in another nation. However bad Taliban rule may be, the costs of war must weigh as well: 240K deaths since 2001 including 70K civilians. Thousands still dying in 2020- 2021
The Challenges of Mapping Taliban Control in Afghanistan
Who controls territory in Afghanistan? The answer is complicated in ways that can't be expressed in a map.
6. Finally, other risks in withdrawal--to the US homeland, to Pakistan, to US reputation, of refugee flows--exist at least to the same degree in an ongoing war. Spikes in violence, spreading fighting + eventual Taliban desperation could have produced all manner of perils
Stephens says we've stayed in Korea for 71 years, so why not Afghanistan? Well, how about this: *Because there is not an active conflict underway in Korea,* and we are not targeted by an insurgency.
He admits that "the Afghan gov't [is] corrupt and inept" but at least it isn't "massacring its own citizens or raising the banner of jihad." That isn't the point. If your partner can't govern effectively, you can't simply dig in: Eventually, your position will become untenable
He says departing a war without victory amounts to "squandering the sacrifice of so many Americans who fought the Taliban bravely and nobly." As opposed to staying in a war you know you cannot win, and demanding that till more sacrifice for a callous strategic gambit?
Finally, the moralistic crescendo: "Our inability to help everyone, everywhere doesn’t relieve us of the obligation to help someone, somewhere," and "America’s power and reputation" rely on "being a beacon of confidence and hope." Good argument for foreign aid, not for making war
Bottom line: There simply is no magical, "leave the minimum force to tamp down the Taliban and look the other way" option for Afghanistan. It doesn't exist. You can't halfway fight a war--not in general, and surely not for a whole generation
It's ironic that this idea is appearing alongside moralistic repudiations of the administration. The Permanent Minimal War option is nothing more than institutionalized avoidance of responsibility, a callous dance around the real decision, dressed up to look like clever strategy
•••
Afghanistan: Record civilian casualties in 2021, UN reports
More than 1,600 civilians have been killed so far in 2021, and the UN fears a further rise.
The Afghanistan war has changed over time in terms of why were there, why we were still there, and justifications from both the left and right depending on who held the power at the time. It was clear that 20 years in little if anything was gained in terms of Afghanistan being able to stand on their own. I find both the left and right a little hypocritical right now - when TFG announced plans to withdraw it was cheered by the right and devoured by the left. Now that roles are reversed the same arguments are reversed. One thing I'm comfortable in now is that the decision now was based on thoughtful reflection, data, facts, and forward thinking...not based on what one thought would be popular with a particular party. That is a HUGE difference. There were a lot of mistakes by everyone over the last 20 years, but a decision was made, not for popularity, but for what was felt was the right thing to do given where we are at right now.
I'm probably going to be in the minority in this position, but yes, I think that President Biden messed this one up. Granted, that gives him something in common with his three predecessors (especially his Orange predecessor, though all of the Presidents since 2000 own a share of this), but as he said, the buck stops with him. He was the one in charge when the Saigon-like images flashed across our screens over the weekend, and it was him who said just a short time ago that it would be "months" before the Taliban retook Kabul.
All of that being said, what's happened cannot be undone. So, what do we do now? To me, the proper thing to do would be to surround the Kabul airport with as many troops as is necessary and make sure that each and every Afghani national who worked with/for us has safe passage to the United (and as an aside, F that racist bigot Tucker Carlson and his xenophobic rantings about us being "invaded". I despite that opportunistic cretin so much). EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. OF. THEM. And, we should should open our doors to the women of that country who want to come here as well. We spent 20 years telling them that they would have a better life, so I think that we owe them at least that much. We need to make it crystal clear to the Taliban that while we are leaving, we will not do until everyone who wants to leave with us has had the opportunity to do so. If they interfere in any way with this process, well, we still have plenty of bombers and munitions, don't we?
Bottom line for me: My heart goes out to the Afghan people, who are now returning to the Seventh Century, and to the thousands of dead/injured service members from this country and its allies, all of whom must be wondering why we went there in the first place.
Perhaps it’s because I was a senior in high school when Saigon fell in 1975 but I’m not shocked by what’s unfolding. I realize it’s difficult to watch but it’s NOT dissimilar. I don’t lay the blame at Biden’s feet AT ALL. Everyone is acting like the 3,000 troops that were there were holding the Taliban in abeyance throughout the whole of Afghanistan, that’s absurd. In order for this to have come off cleanly like an episode of our favorite weekly TV show is equally ABSURD. There is no “Playbook for Exiting a Failed State”! In order for Biden to have pulled this off cleanly the Afghan Government and it’s 300,000 troops would have had to put up at least the pretense of a fight; clearly, that didn’t occur. Is it ugly, are people hurt, will people die ABSOLUTELY. War is an ugly business.
Thanks for your thoughtful take on what is going on Amee. After 20 years of getting to know their culture, religion, history, why didn’t we understand we were never going to import democracy the way we live it? As Fareed Zakaria said, there is no good way to lose a war. It’s heartbreaking to watch (again) the people who helped us, left behind. All I can think is - we did not have good intel that we thought we had a lot more time to get out. Also, I am mad at MSM. All these screaming headlines about what a fail this is for Biden and nothing about what Trump did to set this up for failure or how bad it actually has been for years. We the public really has no idea what is going on there. We are just fed exclamation point tidbits, with all outlets running the same cell phone video and trotting out the same talking heads discussing Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, etc. It’s awful on so many levels.
Watching Biden's speech yesterday, you know, brought me to tears... I saw someone who made an impossible decision that I know he knows could have consequences politically, but still stood by that decision.
Because, to be honest, the thing I kept saying the last days to myself... American's have learned nothing. I admired his resolve. Maybe some wanted him to say other things, fine. He didn't.
I've watched this all unfold over 20 years. The events that transpired after 9/11 is what first got me interested in politics, and in many ways got me through some tough times. I had no TV at the time, and all my information I gleaned from online sources from all over. I was informed to the nth degree. See, twenty years ago, my marriage died, and then my mom at age 54 of cancer, and all this unfolding gripped me. Distracted me.
Well, yesterday I turned 54, and watching possibly 20 years in Afghanistan just completely collapse, and so spectacularly, is just so very sad.
What bothers me, is how was the U.S. AND NATO allies, like the UK, also caught off guard? We have soldiers & others with experience in the country with stories of the corruption in the military, in the government, who saw this coming. So THAT is what I think needs addressing. What disconnect made all those who are entrusted to make these decisions so wrong? And, like, for 20 blawdy years? Over and over?
Uk Foreign minister says in an article I read in the Evening Standard, "I haven’t spoken to an international interlocutor, including countries in the region, over the last week, who hasn’t been surprised”.
WTF happened to make this all dissolve so theatrically?
It's a mess no matter what. Sure my heart goes out to the women and children of Afghanistan who will heavily bear the brunt of the Taliban regime for years to come, but Biden was right, we can't keep spending American treasure and lives for another country's civil war. My heart also goes out to the American homeless who have expanded their ranks because of Trump's policies, the collapse of the American middle class, the lack of quality education for American children, American vets who are primarily used as props for both parties, the racial inequality, on and on. We have a plethora of our own problems and a democracy on the verge of collapse itself. Most Americans support pulling out of Afghanistan, most people don't care but of course, FAUX news will frame this as Biden's defeat and conveniently forget out how Trump cozied up with terrorists and helped them rebuild their army. Politics in America. At least Joe Biden followed his conviction regardless of the politics of the moment, that's more than we can say for any Trumplican.
I so admire Biden’s courage! The military planning for the inevitable chaotic retreat from Afghanistan is criminal and some Generals should be losing some stars! They did not serve us or our president well at all.
History lesson I am sadly having to relearn again. Military might does not win asymmetrical warfare. Geo Washington defeated the greatest imperial army in history with a ragtag bunch of farmers…seldom even winning a battle! Gandhi did it to them again in India! Ho Chi Minh copied them and defeated us in Vietnam, the Iraqis used their own version and now the Taliban have worn us down….. you know what they call it when you keep repeating the same behavior while hoping for different results?
I have two words: Remember Viet Nam. This was Russia's Viet Nam. There is no reason to maim, mutilate, and kill anymore Americans and Allies in this unwinnable war.
The Afghan war was a mistake from the first. If Bush II had been honest about 9/11, we would have gone after Saudi Arabia. But because of Big Oil, we picked on Afghanistan, and then Iraq.
So much of this shit show was our fault: we armed the Taliban so that they could fight the Soviet Union in 1979. When the Soviets pulled out, we were faced with a heavily armed, vengeful Taliban angry with the West and all non-Muslims.
45 made the situation worse, by releasing Taliban leaders and fighters to return to their unending civil war. But as in all foreign policy decisions, The Former Guy was just being Putin's puppet.
President Biden was correct: if the trained, armed Afghani army won't do its job, then there is no sane reason that we should let our children fight and die there any longer. Twenty years is 19 years too long when we shouldn't have been there in the first place. More time would not have changed the outcome, just piled up more American bodies.
As for the women and girls and any other religious groups that will be oppressed under the Taliban, it is a terrible, sorry situation. I feel for them, and send them prayers of strength and perseverance to fight the regime from within.
It is not America's job to be the world's police force, especially when the majority of the presumed victims don't want our help. We will take in Afghan refugees, and use diplomatic power to mitigate the regime change. But that's all we can or should do.
Afghanistan has defeated every invading empire that has tried to rule it, From the British Empire to the Soviet Union. What made the US think that we could do better than all the others was pure hubris.
At this point, my big issue was we should have gotten the helpers out first. We can defend our troops getting out. Leaving the translators, and acting like they were an afterthought is unconsionable.
In 2001 with 9/11, we had a knee jerk reaction to the World Trade Center attacks. Until then, we had an unconscious belief that we were safe; separated by huge oceans from the terrorism we read and saw abroad. We were stunned. And having the “greatest military on earth”, felt we had the right to go anywhere, do anything for payback.
Yes we told ourselves were were taking actions to protect ourselves and the rest of the world from future attacks. Honestly though as a society; we had bloodlust. Gut check: How did you feel 11 years later when Oshawa Bin Laden was finally tracked down and killed. For many of us, IT FELT GOOD! Please, I am not applauding this feeling. I am disgusted by it; when I feel it in myself, when I sense it in others.
After 9/11, broadly speaking, we were willing to accept any statement of culpability as fact. While the Afghan government were “harboring” al-Qadda and other terrorist groups; they were running a less than failed state. Similar to Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, the Iraqi government was maintaining order; even with the existence of extreme violence and genocide.
But with 911, ur jingoism kicked in again. We still had not learned to take a step back; and take perspective.
Ready, fire, aim!” was the rule of the day. When the French wisely avoided getting caught up in the 2001 Afghanistan and 2003 Iraq wave; we made jokes about them. Renaming our favorite side “Freedom Fries”; “French rifles for sale. Never used. Dropped once.” How wise they look today.
This idea that we can ‘seed Democracy” around the world stopped working shortly after World War II. Yes, thank God for the Marshall Plan. Western Europe was extremely vulnerable to Soviet influence and possibly even takeover. But the last real “seeding of Democracy” may have occurred in Greece in 1946, when the Soviets attempted to infiltrate and conquer. Fortunately the citizens of Greece, by and large, thought of communism as the anti-Christ and resisted accordingly.
Yet we continued to run with the old game plan, thinking we can seed Democracy. Even former President Nixon, after his resignation and during his attempt at reputation rehabilitation, wrote the book, NO MORE VIETNAMS. Hats off to Bush, “the elder”, who wisely stopped our military advance in 1991. We had accomplished the goals we committed to with our Allied partners: primarily kicking Hussein out of Kuwait. How we howled for more! As a society, our jingoism engine was running hot.
And while our ego is again smarting from another embarrassing withdrawal (segue to image of helicopter above the US Saigon Embassy); the greatest losses are the pain, suffering and death in the populations of the countries we allegedly went to help. Never mind the damage we have done to our own people. It is estimated that over 100,00 Afghan citizens and 500,000 to 1,000,000 Iraqi lives have been lost.
And not nearly the scale of the figures above, we know we also lost military (and civilian) lives. We know that many more came back physically and emotionally scarred. A lot of the homeless population is comprised of scarred veterans; who haven’t been helped enough to heal, or at least resume a semblance of a healthy life.
But we don’t seem to comprehend the lost opportunities of throwing our “best and brightest” against the rocks of war. The loss of love, happiness and healthiness in our nation is unmeasurable. Never mind the economic benefits of a larger workforce and larger pool of consumers would have brought.
In his farewell address, President Eisenhower warned us of the Military Industrial Complex. I sure that failure to heed his warning is a theme that runs through all of this . . .
I watched when Saigon fell and wondered why our military couldn't have done a better job of evacuating those allied with us. I am still wondering - but this time it's why no one seems to have learned anything in the intervening years about evacuating allies from a failed occupation.
That's what this was, after all is said and done. Once we got Bin Laden & most of Al Queda out of there, we should have considered getting out then. In an orderly, controlled fashion, not the helter skelter, idiotic mess precipitated TFG. Why our military couldn't have managed the withdrawal in a more controlled fashion remains to be discovered. Was it constraints from TFG, or was it chaos because of the manner in which Biden chose to proceed? I look forward with no pleasure whatsoever to finding out which is closer to what actually happened. And I have no doubt that it will be parsed, analyzed and dissected six ways from Sunday in the weeks and months to come.
My only consolation in this, knowing that people whose only "crime" was to offer assistance to our troops will most likely suffer and die, is that the GOP (without whose machinations we might not even have been in this mess-by Gore winning instead of Georgie) will do something else completely egregious and democracy-shattering before the 2022 midterms which will refocus attention on them and not on this. <- whew, long sentence, eh? With that in mind, I am gearing up for another 'fight for the heart and soul of our country' at the ballot box in the coming year.
This isn't the first time, and it won't be the last...
That being said why do the American people put up with outright lies from it's political leaders under the guise of democracy...
Even if it was only a dream, DOD, should of been tasked for a plan as soon as Secretary Austin was sworn in, yes he had a lot on his plate when he took office, with sexual harassment and other things, but that comes with the job.
Biden's micro management and detailed briefs go way overboard that's what the secretarial and their staffs are for to do the ground work for implementation of tasks..
Could of left 15,000 or 20,000 to protect logistical personel, and flying assets, and orderly move Afgan civilians and families to neutral countries or directly to former military bases in the states. Give them one chance if they refuse the stay or go the back of line. That's the least we could of done, there would still be some chaos but not like what happened. Logistical speaking every other or third planes could of been for evacuatees TRANSCOM could've figured it out..
We lie to the American people, the American troops and the host countries citizens, which is deplorable and takes us as a nation down a nock on foreign policy everytime we do it. Our word as a nation is even worth less then some promises left by Trump's lies...
For all the blood spilled, and lives lost in vain, are counter point to Abe Lincoln's that none of the troops should ever have died in vain, but they have and they did... I guess they will continue to in future wars unless the American people stop the lies of the politicians... That's why we need a more open government that follows the intent of the Constitution, if we learn to respect our own people maybe we could also learn to respect the other peoples of the world...
This wasn't my war or neither was Vietnam, but I seen the broken bodies, and the broken families, plus countless suicides... The American troops deserve better, the American people deserve better, isn't that one of the key words of this adminstration "better"....
(Bio; 80, plus years, 20 years USAF active military, 14 years as an Air Force Civilian)
I am angry at CNN and MSNBC and the rest for their tearing apart of this decision. I guess what I heard and what "they" heard from the President were two different things. My heart is in my throat over the Afghan people but everyone (mostly) is missing the point of what took place by TFG to set this up. A little context of the big picture is missing from all the yelling. Tckr Crlsn is nothing but a fear mongering blow hard...
One additional thought and comparison I understand how those who served there feel betrayed. The men and women who served in Vietnam felt betrayed as well. The difference is that they were demonized by the American public. The were greeted home with the phrase “Baby Killer”! It still rings in my in my ears.
You know there were back room dealings. We will probably never know the complete story. It was very Saigon-esque, to me, only on a much more dangerous level. I wonder, what is next with the Taliban? They are now emboldened.
I have this feeling it's not over yet. I certainly agree with what the President did. It had to be done. "We did not go to Afghanistan to nation-build." Time will tell as to what may happen in Afghanistan in the future, and I think the US will be watching closely.
Another POV: https://badnews.substack.com/p/surrender-or-withdrawal-the-kabul?r=101ii&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&utm_source=copy
Best Analysis I have seen so far.
Mike Mazarr @MMazarr
Aug 17, 2021 • 15 tweets • MMazarr/status/1427459275631349764
One argument of critics is that, as Bret Stephens claims, the US had a cozy minimal presence which "Any American president could have maintained ... almost indefinitely — with no prospect of defeating the Taliban but none of being routed by them, either"
Opinion | Disaster in Afghanistan Will Follow Us Home
Biden owns the moment. He’ll also own the consequences.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/15/opinion/afghanistan-taliban-biden.html?referringS...
"In other words," Stephens adds, "we had achieved a good-enough solution for a nation we could afford to neither save nor lose. We squandered it anyway." This is far too simplistic, a dangerous and misleading straw man. Many problems with this vision of a Permanent Minimal War:
1. There is no end to the effort in this scheme. None. If we agree that governance + other key indicators were stuck or in reverse, this clever stratagem ties the US to a truly forever war. What major democracy has ever maintained such a role (in *active* combat) for 3+ decades?
2. Even w/small force levels there are economic costs. Proposed 2021 spending was $14B assuming big drawdown; if violence fluctuated, we could easily have seen spikes. So, with potent domestic needs, we spend $20B+ a year on an endless war?
3. The "stay forever" plan assumes the Taliban would have tolerated such a stalemate forever. They would not. The last few days suggest they had major untapped political + military power. If they sensed the US was digging in to stay, they would escalate, not abandon their cause
4. Indeed, the best guess is probably that there was never a stalemate to preserve. Mapping Taliban control is tough, but lots of indicators showed gradual rise in power. Last days indicate that they were accumulating more influence than we thought
And so, the US would not have had a calm perpetual position but rather more likely confront a series of "2009 moments": Trends look bad, we can surge or watch it fall apart. That's not a sustainable long-term strategic position to be in. Biden did future presidents a huge favor
5. Staying forever makes the US complicit in maintaining a permanent state of war in another nation. However bad Taliban rule may be, the costs of war must weigh as well: 240K deaths since 2001 including 70K civilians. Thousands still dying in 2020- 2021
The Challenges of Mapping Taliban Control in Afghanistan
Who controls territory in Afghanistan? The answer is complicated in ways that can't be expressed in a map.
https://www.lawfareblog.com/challenges-mapping-taliban-control-afghanistan
US military budget request for Afghanistan lowest in a decade
The Defense Department detailed that the OCO budget request for Afghanistan “assumes a drawdown of forces.
https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2020/02/10/us-military-budget-request-for-af...
6. Finally, other risks in withdrawal--to the US homeland, to Pakistan, to US reputation, of refugee flows--exist at least to the same degree in an ongoing war. Spikes in violence, spreading fighting + eventual Taliban desperation could have produced all manner of perils
Stephens says we've stayed in Korea for 71 years, so why not Afghanistan? Well, how about this: *Because there is not an active conflict underway in Korea,* and we are not targeted by an insurgency.
He admits that "the Afghan gov't [is] corrupt and inept" but at least it isn't "massacring its own citizens or raising the banner of jihad." That isn't the point. If your partner can't govern effectively, you can't simply dig in: Eventually, your position will become untenable
He says departing a war without victory amounts to "squandering the sacrifice of so many Americans who fought the Taliban bravely and nobly." As opposed to staying in a war you know you cannot win, and demanding that till more sacrifice for a callous strategic gambit?
Finally, the moralistic crescendo: "Our inability to help everyone, everywhere doesn’t relieve us of the obligation to help someone, somewhere," and "America’s power and reputation" rely on "being a beacon of confidence and hope." Good argument for foreign aid, not for making war
Bottom line: There simply is no magical, "leave the minimum force to tamp down the Taliban and look the other way" option for Afghanistan. It doesn't exist. You can't halfway fight a war--not in general, and surely not for a whole generation
It's ironic that this idea is appearing alongside moralistic repudiations of the administration. The Permanent Minimal War option is nothing more than institutionalized avoidance of responsibility, a callous dance around the real decision, dressed up to look like clever strategy
•••
Afghanistan: Record civilian casualties in 2021, UN reports
More than 1,600 civilians have been killed so far in 2021, and the UN fears a further rise.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-57967960